Can This Be True

[RIPOFF]

Hi all

 

I just wanted to ask if this garage is ripping me off.

 

I have a galaxy 2003 1.9 tdi 130bhp 71,000 miles

 

In january i replaced cambelt car ok in june car cambelt snapped caused by waterpump, also damaged valves, garage quotes cost of repair

[sepulchrave]

Yes, they have done the job really badly and ripped you off.

 

A brand new completely reconditioned cylinder head including a new cam for your car is

[jkspoff]

Time to name and shame the garage you took it to by the sounds of it, so we don't make the same mistake, was it a main agent ?

[RIPOFF]

Hi Guys

 

First of all thanks for the replies much appreciated and no i haven't got my parts back yet as i still haven't got my car back.

 

The garage in question is Bankside garage kirkstall road, leeds, west yorkshire.

[jkspoff]

Thanks for the info, maybe the main agents aren't quite that bad after all, have you got any further with this yet ? It sounds to me like a job for trading standards:

 

http://www.ts.wyjs.org.uk/index.asp?pg=Indexhome.htm

[RIPOFF]

Hi all just an update the cars gone back into the garage for the last time, if the repair is not satisfactory as per the instructions of the trading standards

i can request an independent inspection to assess the workmanship but both parties have to agree to this, the car still doesn't start properly and on a morning a great amount of white smoke comes out when it's started.

 

Can anybody confirm that the fuel pump has to be timed manually or is it electronically controlled as this has been suggested as the fault.

 

Regards

 

Ripoff

[seatkid]

The basic timing has to be set manually. IIRC only a minute amount of timing adjustment (trimming) can be performed electronically via the diagnostics.

 

White smoke is caused by

 

1. Glow plugs not working (but only for a couple of seconds after a cold start)

2. Insufficient combustion temperature (usually low compression)

3 Incorrect injection timing.

 

Special Ford/VW Tools are required to set the timing accurately.

 

From the Ford TIS CD

after the cambelt is fitted.....

9. check the valve timing

Rotate the crankshaft two revolutions in its normal direction and set it to TDC of piston No. 1

 

10 Note:

Make sure the marks on the crankshaft timing pullet and on the special tool face one another exactly. The special tool must be installed from the front to the sprocket and engage in the bore of the crankshaft front seal carrier mating face.

 

Install the special tool.

 

11 WARNING Wrap the flutes of the drill bit with a suitable tape.

Check the the timing belt tensioner setting by inserting the 4 mm drill bit (as per pic)

 

12 WARNING Wrap the flutes of the drill bit with a suitable tape.

Insert a 6mm drill bit through the hole in the camshaft pulley. If the drill bit can not be inserted, loosen the camshaft pulley retaining bolts, insert the drill bit and tighten the camshaft pulley retaining bolts.

 

When the engine is warm, glow plugs are not required to start the engine. I would say that possibly the camshaft pulley has slipped and the timing is out.

Edited July 24, 2008 by seatkid

[sepulchrave]

Oh dear, this garage really is useless.

 

This is NOT an old tech diesel with a timed mechanical pump and pintle valve injectors.

 

This IS a new generation common rail, pompe duse diesel turbo with electronically controlled unit injectors.

 

This mean that injection timing is controlled completely by the ECU just like fuel injected petrol cars.

 

The fuel pump is simply a low pressure pump driven directly from the end of the cam and it CANNOT be installed wrong since it has an offset keyway which fits in the end of the cam.

 

There are four individual unit injectors inside the camcover which are driven by additional camlobes much like hypodermic syringes which each have electronic solenoid valves to trigger timed fuel release.

 

So, to summarise. This engine contains revolutionary technology which has won many awards because it is NOTHING like diesels used to be.

 

By all means print this sh*t off and give it to trading standards, check my facts and figures, I'm in the trade I supply the trade every day. Many garages are downright dangerous because they don't have a clue, however many of these traders know their limitations and simply turn work away which is outside their sphere of competence.

 

Many of the guys I sell to wouldn't touch a job like this with a bargepole, however you seem to have found one who's totally out of his depth and has gone in feet-first.

 

I strongly suspect they have wrecked your engine, at best one or more unit injectors are damaged (dealer only, very expensive), more likely is that they have wrecked the camshaft too and you need a whole new head and possibly one or more injectors.

 

They'll never fix it, they're in full failure cascade mode now. The job should've cost you no more than

Edited July 24, 2008 by sepulchrave

[seatkid]

Woah there sepulchrave!......The timing is derived from the the camshaft position sensor, so you have the have the camshaft pulley in exactly the right position!

 

White smoke possible source is due valve timing according to Ford TIS (2nd possibilty after bad fuel)

[gregers]

Hi all just an update the cars gone back into the garage for the last time, if the repair is not satisfactory as per the instructions of the trading standards

i can request an independent inspection to assess the workmanship but both parties have to agree to this,

 

 

so if the garage refuse to agree to an independent inspection,just where does that leave you and have you asked the trading standards people about this scenario?.

[RIPOFF]

wow what a reply, thanks guys much appreciated this could be the infomation i need to nail this garage,

 

Thanks for all the help

 

Regards

 

Ripoff.

[sepulchrave]

Woah there sepulchrave!......The timing is derived from the the camshaft position sensor, so you have the have the camshaft pulley in exactly the right position!

 

White smoke possible source is due valve timing according to Ford TIS (2nd possibilty after bad fuel)

 

Dude, I'm sorry, I was typing that out while you were posting so did not see what you had written.

 

What I wrote therefore was in no way connected to what you were simultaneously posting.

 

You are and always have been a selfless, accurate and altruistic contributor to these hallowed fora, and you have my unreserved respect.

 

You are of course correct, unlike most petrol injected cars which use a crank sensor for the ECU to determine engine position this particular one uses a cam sensor driven at half engine speed.

 

Unfortunately I believe that the tapered drive onto which the pulley bolts also has a keyway making it difficult to get the pulley on wrong, which only really leaves the belt timing.

 

I still maintain they've damaged this engine by not understanding how it works at first principles.

[seatkid]

My back is all wet! :D ...must take a bath.....

 

According to the instructions on the TIS, the camshaft pulley is not keyed and has to be aligned with the camshaft using a 6mm rod (drill bit), hence the possibilty of timing slip if the 3 bolts are not tight enough. A special tool is required to lock the camshaft assembly while the 3 bolts are tightened to 25nm.

 

RIPOFF did say it was going alright until it stopped 3 hours later. Hence my conclusion that something slipped - could also be the tensioner incorrectly installed allowing the cambelt to jump one sprocket, but I guess they would have spotted that.

Edited July 24, 2008 by seatkid

[sepulchrave]

Three bolts?

 

All the heads I've seen just have a dirty great taper on the end of the cam with a single large central bolt hole, the only way I can see that you could get the pulley on right without a keyway is to have the cam locked in place with a 'special' tool of some sort, this is common on twin cam engines like the Zetec which have no keyways for the pulleys.

 

To be fair, I've never had to put a head back onto an engine, but I get to see most or all of the top ends when cretinous mechanics bring in a cardboard box containing EVERYTHING they've ripped off the engine whether we need it or not, including all the old gaskets and nuts and bolts.

 

A favourite jape to watch is a sixteen valve head wrapped in a carrier bag which they proudly slam onto the counter, promptly bending a couple more pairs of inlet and exhaust valves!

 

Make no mistakes guys, the vast majority of mechanics are utter idiots. Remember that if you're lucky enough to find a good one then keep him for life, not just Christmas, pay what he asks and treat him fairly, never question his judgement and above all trust him. They're that rare.

[RIPOFF]

Ok guys i think the final question should be.

 

In you're opinion what is it going to take to fix this problem?

 

Regards

 

Ripoff

[sepulchrave]

Indepedant analysis of the problems by experienced and appropriately trained personnel.

 

Either a good independant specialist or a main dealer.

 

You might get him to agree to an independant more easily since he can try and get at them behind your back, better yet use the AA or RAC.

 

Either way you'll be paying the bill for the inspection and diagnosis.

[mumof4]

wow sep, i am well impressed!!

[seatkid]

Ask them to check the camshaft pulley has not slipped - do the 6mm drill bit test according to the Ford TIS instructions with the correct tools. (Ask them how they check the timing)

 

Then you need to agree with them about seeking independent help and who would cover costs.

[seatkid]

Oh...I've just remembered that the bottom crankshaft cambelt pulley can sometimes slip...that will throw the timing too. (Not sure if this is a Tdi or PD problem though...)

[RIPOFF]

Thanks guys once again

 

Regards

 

Ripoff

[RIPOFF]

Hi All

Just thought i would keep you all posted, i got my car back this morning to find alarm,indicators,interior lights, heated screen both front and back not working

phoned the garage he said bring it in.

 

Nochance i contacted trading standards and am in the proccess of sending a letter with all my complaints and requests, also he said the final fault is with the

ECU which is causing the glow plugs not to work and the white smoke and until i replace it there is nothing more he can do.

 

so now i cannot sell my car until all this is resolved and it's running like a bag of bones.

 

well i have one more question is there anyway the ECU can tell when it went faulty ie date/time etc?

 

or next question how much would it cost to get it checked out to see if it is faulty?

 

Regards

 

Ripoff.

[seatkid]

99% sure its not the ECU (it would die completely)

 

Glow plugs dont come on at this time of the year and it would still start fine without them in this weather

 

I tell you its the camshaft timing.......

 

And now he's f**ked the electrics cause he's out of his depth.

 

 

And, for those who dont believe the camshaft sprocket is not keyed and held on with three bolts, here's a picture courtesy of Briskoda forum

 

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z214/skudmissile_2007/CIMG2639.jpg

 

see this cambelt changing guide for a PD engine

 

I hope Briskoda don't mind me linking to their site.

[sepulchrave]

The ECU is not faulty, it's either go or no go. This is a sure sign that they have no idea what's going on.

 

Sounds like they've blown a bunch of fuses or burnt out some wiring while clumsily crashing through the undergrowth of your cars electrical subsystems.

 

I warned you that they were dangerously out of their depth, now it's getting worse.

 

If you let them near it again, they might actually fry the ECU or better yet set light to the car!

 

You're in a land of pure horror, if you've already paid them then you're in big trouble, take the car to a main dealer for diagnosis and get a courtesy car while Trading Standards prosecute them.

[sepulchrave]

And, for those who dont believe the camshaft sprocket is not keyed and held on with three bolts, here's a picture courtesy of Briskoda forum

 

Hold on a damn minute, those three bolts do not hold the pulley to the cam just as I previously stated!

 

They hold the pulley to a carrier, it's a vernier pulley with slotted holes for fine adjustment.

 

The large central bolt holds the carrier to the large taper on the cam just as I previously stated.

 

Unlike you I've actually seen lots of them in bits, and I actually know what I'm looking at.

 

This isn't a UFO report, I'm not going to draw you a bloody picture while you snicker behind your hand, I'm not making this up.

Be fair, I admitted that I don't do the mechanics, I can even admit that I don't do the machining since I have a team of technicians who do that, but I do at least know what I'm talking about.

[seatkid]

I bow to your greater knowledge.

 

But I still think the timing has slipped....